Friday, June 30, 2006

High Up In the IDF Is A Very Good Chess Player

Someone in the higher echelons of the IDF is a very good chess player. It is obvious to me that Olmert and Peretz are being advised on how to proceed by someone who has thought out the scenario ahead of time.

We are at war with an enemy that is not conventional, so our superior army cannot be used in the way it would be against a normal threat. If we had no morals, and could just go in and go after the terrorists without worrying about civilians, we would have won a long time ago. If the outside world treated us like any other country in the world, and stopped supporting the Arabs with money and endless positive propanganda spin, we would also have won a long time ago. What can you do? We're Jews and won't wage an uncivilized war (and I wouldn't want it any other way) and the powerful combination of the need for Arab oil and the deep roots of anti-Semitism will always make it harder for others, even America, to give us a fair shake.

When the terrorists decided to launch Kassam rockets at Sderot and Ashkelon, and attacked an army base in the Negev and kidnapped an Israeli soldier, they were acting on the assumption that it was a win/win situation for them. The anti-Israel propaganda spin means that the whole world conveniently skips over the initial aggression, and only focusses on the defensive reaction by us. So that when the IDF is finally pushed into taking action, and goes into Gaza, they win the propaganda war, which leads to more aid coming in. If the Israelis don't come in, but negotiate a prisoner swap, they also win - especially on the street where families want their sons, and sometimes daughters, out of jail.

There is no lose in this scenario, because the terrorists don't value the same things we do. If the IDF comes in and kills innocent civilians, which is basically inevitable when the terrorist hide behind them, the terrorists don't mourn - they rejoice. More good publicity. If the terrorists manage to kill IDF soldiers, even if the losses are way out of proportion to their own losses, than they also rejoice - not only because of the pride involved, but because they know that all of us in Israel mourn the loss of even one of our sons, and the left uses this pain as a way to pressure the government to refrain from action in the future.

So how do you proceed in this kind of a war? You figure out how to change it from win/win to lose. You figure out what the other side really values and you go after it.

The arrest of the Hamas "legislature" was a brilliant move. I have been reading a lot of complaints from right wingers moaning about the fact that these guys weren't assasinated right off, but I think this is short sighted. Turning these terrorists (elected officials or no) into just a stain on the pavement would have been very satisfying emotionally, but it would not have influenced the specific situation we are in now. We have a kidnapped soldier to worry about. Putting a substantial chunk of the Hamas government in jail changes the whole picture. Now Hamas has something to lose - their own political power. There already has been talk of Abbas taking over and setting up an "temporary emergency" government. We all know that this theoretical temporary government could become a permanent one, especially because both the United States and some in Israel see Abbas as a moderate. The people elected to the Hamas government are also not just ordinary citizens. They have families and connections which led them to their positions of power, and the money and jobs to give away that they have access to as politicians will be lost if they rot in jail.

Haaretz reports that these Hamas government members have been arrested for terrorist activity, and that the Attorney General has approved this in advance. This, of course, is just icing on the cake - to neutralize our own left wing's opposition to this move.

Right now the IDF is in Gaza - but there are no casualties. No bloody pictures of civilians dead - and no funerals of soldiers in Israel. The IAF is keeping the pressure on by bombing bridges and empty buildings, and taking out power stations. The buzzing of Assad's palace was also a clear message to him - that he has something to lose by supporting Mashaal. So far the terrorists haven't won anything.

Will the IDF have to go in anyway and kill terrorists and sustain losses? Will there inevitably be the bloody pictures? Will the IDF release these Hamas members in exchange for our soldier? I don't know, but at least, for this short span of time, a very good chess player has given Israel the chance to turn a losing scenario into one where we can possibly win.


Blogger Jack Steiner said...

I agree, it is an interesting move.

7:19 AM, June 30, 2006  
Blogger Emanuelle said...

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good bye.

7:25 AM, June 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You need drop this idea that it is somehow moral to be nice in war. There is no Halachic basis for this whatsoever, not only is there no basis for being kind to our enemies in war it is a terrible avera.

Before you wax poetic about how great the IDF strategy is it would do you some good to actually know what the rules of war are according to the Torah. You should start with Rambam Hilchos Melachim. After you have finished that perphaps you will realize that in a defensive war, which is always a Milchemet Mitzvah, it is a CHIUV to kill every member of the enemy nation. The Rambam writes that those who go out to war without a willingness to fight with their whole heart and utterly destroy the enemy nation are spilling Jewish blood.

"For it is through the mercy of fools that all justice is lost"

The Ramban

7:38 AM, June 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Very interesting and compelling analysis. I am not only persuaded by your argument, but also am rooting for a check-mate.

Arnie in NYC

8:16 AM, June 30, 2006  
Blogger tafka PP said...

Interesting post.

WBM, I hope someone starts paying you to write one of these days: You could bring a very calm and intelligent perspective to some of the ranting rightist sites.

10:01 AM, June 30, 2006  
Blogger Unknown said...

That she could...

Another great post, WBM. Thank you.

11:05 AM, June 30, 2006  
Blogger westbankmama said...

jack - We'll have to see if it works. So far it hasn't

anonymous - when I ask a Rav for a halachic ruling, he uses many different sources, not just one, to come to a decision. He also asks specific questions to see if the situation that I describe is exactly like the one that the halacha names, or if there are different variables at work. This is true regarding "simple" halachic problems, and is even more apparent with questions of war, which is much more complicated. That is why we ask a Rav for a psak, and we don't rely on just an ancient text alone. So I am not disregarding what the Rambam/Ramban says, but I rely on living Rabbonim to make real-life decisions on what should be done. Do you know of contemporary Rabbonim that say we should bomb civilians?

anonymous 2 - thank you for visiting my blog

tafka - from your mouth to G-d's ear. I would love a job like that!

ezzie - thank you again for your links!!!

7:20 AM, July 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, Rav Mordechai Eliyahu for one as well as the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Though since there isn't one Rishon who holds of mercy in warfare so any modern posek who pakens there is something wrong with killing Goy civilians doesnt have a Halachic leg to stand on.

Though war is actually among the simplest of Halachot. There are really only two types of war Milchemet Rishut a war we choose to start because we want to expand our borders and a Milchemet MItzvah. In a Milchemet Rishut we are allowed to spar the women and children. In a Milchemet Mitzvah we are required to kill every member of the Goyish nation we are fighting. There are times a Milchemet Mitzvah takes place, against Amalek, to wipe out the Sheva Haamim or conquer Eretz Yisrael(its a Machlokes) and any defensive war.

8:43 AM, July 02, 2006  
Blogger Fern @ Life on the Balcony said...

Originally I thought it was a diplomatic nightmare to capture the elected officials of another "country's" "legislature," but now I'm coming around to the idea. Also, if it makes you feel any better, American news (well, all I watch is FOX News, so I can only speak for them) has had pretty decent coverage of what is going on, and they have been fair, if not slightly biased in favor of Israel. Their reporting has always mentioned Gilad Shalit as the reason behind Israel's actions and stressed the efforts Israel has made to limit civilian casualties.

1:25 PM, July 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hey, anonymous:

1) Rav Shlomo Goren and others have ruled that the Arabs are Muslim, and therefore the halachot applying to heathen enemies is not applicable to them.

2) As mama's post makes clear, sometimes it's better to be smart in waging war - which means not doing everything you are theoretically capable of doing.


2:44 PM, July 02, 2006  
Blogger aliyah06 said...

How to wage this battle is one to keep from having to wage it again is another. I feel like we're back in 1958 again, with the Egyptians in Gaza not doing much to stop the fedayeen (now Hamas and the PRCs) run across the border and kill Jews when they're not launching rocket attacks on Jewish towns.

Halacha may "allow" the slaughter of all the enemy, but couldn't we find a more persuasive way to end their aggression other than wholesale slaughter? (My 'carpet-bombing' comment notwithstanding--the voice of frustration)

5:26 PM, July 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Westbankpapa, we now know that the Rambam DOES consider Muslims Achum(idol worshipers) since the uncensored Frankel edition of the Rambam's Mishen Torah has finally been published so this should cause a revision of all rulings regarding the halachic status of Muslims. That being said, even if they arent Achum this is still a defensive war in which case it is a Milchemet Mitzvah in which our obligations are clear.

Aliyaho6, Halacha does not only allow the slaughter of enemies, it requires it, and anyone who spares the life of a member of the enemy nation has spilled Jewish blood. Rambam again.

Remember Shaul HaMelech's sparing of Agag, and all the disasters that came from it. Before you feel worry about hurting the "innocent" Arabs.

And, before anyone asks, yes, Jewish lives are worth more that the lives of Goyim. So if Goyim have to be killed to save Jews of course they are killed

Gemara Yevamos, Rebbe Meir says if you can save the life of a Jew or a Goy you are required to save the Jew. Why? Because one Jew is worth more then all the Goyim in the world combined.

6:08 PM, July 02, 2006  
Blogger SnoopyTheGoon said...

Hi WBM and WBP. It was a very good post indeed. I wish the chess-player, whoever it is, all the luck - most importantly get our guy (and our guys) home alive.

I have only one fear - that of the irrational terrorist behavior displayed only too frequently by the other side. I hope this will not happen this time.


6:12 PM, July 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

An insider's perspective is certainly appreciated. I marvel at your seeming so level-headed. Even if Hamas is edged out or replaced by an Abu Mazen regime, what guarantee is there that brazen abductions will cease? or the rocket shots? or worse? I don't see it. I don't see pat objective or clear outcome from this. (And I'm not even talking about the welfare of corporal Shalit.)

4:24 AM, July 03, 2006  
Blogger Mad Zionist said...

Hate to disagree with you WB Mama, but I fear this is a game being played that will cost Jewish lives. At some point it must become clear that refusing to pound the terrorist vermin will only encourage them to kill more Jews. We can hope for the concessions and restrained responses to cause the arabs to rethink their plans to exterminate the Jews, but truth is just the opposite. When we fail to pulverize the enemy who is trying to kill us we only give him more time to achieve his goals.

Chess, checkers, scrabble, it's all a way of making justifications to the unjustifiable. While I admire your optimism in the face of real danger, I am nonetheless convinced it is misguided.

9:10 AM, July 03, 2006  
Blogger westbankmama said...

aliyah06 - you are very right, we have been to this movie before (Israeli slang for "the more things change, the more they stay the same")

anonymous - do you serve in the IDF?

snoopy - thank you, but I fear that they are acting irrationally also

jeremayakovka - I think that this move was just one good one, and should be followed up. It looks like Olmert is not doing this. I also fear that it was a gamble that had no chance of success because either Gilad has been killed already, and there is really nothing to trade, or that there is such chaos in Gaza that there is no way of "normal" channels to work (if you can call gangs of thugs a "normal" channel)

mad zionist - the reality is is that we can never go in and completely wipe them out, because of the civilian population. Can we be much tougher than we are now - of course. Can we go in to the areas we need to to safeguard Sderot - of course. But that calls for someone who believes 100% that we have the right to do this. This move was very smart, in my opinion, because it was something that the wishy-washy politicians could get behind.

9:51 AM, July 03, 2006  
Blogger Soccer Dad said...

Off topic but the American army apparently has some pretty good chess players too.

2:46 PM, July 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What does my serving in the army have to do with this subject. I have brought proofs from the Torah, and you have responded with "do you serve in the army?" No, I decided after Gush Katif that this was a army I could not serve in.

WM, there is no issur whatsoever in killing Goy "civilians" in a time of war to save Jewish lives. In fact we are required to wipe out the enemy even their civilian population as I stated previously and you have yet to respond to.

3:11 PM, July 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi WBM, I also have to say I disagree somewhat, not on arresting the Hamas members. This should have been done months ago before they got any legitimacy at all in my opinion. Hamas should have never been allowed to run, it is in direct contravention of every ageement signed with the PA which authorizes such elections in the first place!

But on the concept that there is a big strategy that played out this week by the IDF. Reports in the news indicated that the IDF / Politicians were at odds, Olmert wanting more & more time to play his Egyptian diplomacy. I wish with all my might you are right about a plan, as it is a very positive outlook.

5:22 PM, July 03, 2006  
Blogger Mad Zionist said...

Mama, we don't have to wipe them all out. The fact is we could transfer them out today if we wanted to, with minimal csualties, and we'd be done with them. If we keep them festering in the Land they will continue to terrorize us. We both know that this is true. Ridding them from us prevents Jews from being killed and prevents us from needing to kill them. As long as they remain lots of people will unfortunately have to die.

5:45 PM, July 03, 2006  
Blogger Mad Zionist said...


Nowhere is it written to my knowledge that for a Milchemet Mitzvah it is a requirement to exterminate all enemy civilians.

Here's what I know: Ramban states that a Jewish army must give the enemy a chance to surrender even for a milchemet mitzvah. He brings as proof the fact that Moshe Rabbeinu followed this process when attacking the Amorites, one of the seven nations whose conquering is considered a milchemet mitzvah.

The RAMBAM writes at the beginning of Chapter Six, “No war is launched against any opponent without offering terms of peace.” In Halachah Five, he describes communiqués sent by Yehoshua to foreign leaders upon the entry of the Jewish People into the Land of Canaan: 1. Whoever wishes to flee, may exercise that option; 2. Whoever wishes to make peace under our terms, may do so; 3. Whoever wishes to enter into battle with us, may do so.

In all sources I've seen a milchemt mitzvah requires us to give the enemy an opportunity to exit, an opportunity to surrender, or an opportunity to fight and be killed.

From this, it is clear that as Jews we must attempt to let them flee or surrender before killing anyone, and kill only as needed to achieve the goal of fleeing or surrender.

We know that Israel's military might will be able to force the vermin to flee, or surrender to our terms, if we choose to make that happen, without exterminating the entire population.

Extermination is a last resort, not an option we choose as soon as a milchmet mitzvah is declared. To say otherwise is somewhat sadistic.

6:32 PM, July 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Recheck your sources, warning the enemy and giving them a chance to flee only apply BEFORE the fighting starts.

10:35 PM, July 03, 2006  
Blogger Mad Zionist said...

I have not seen any rabbinic source say unconditional surrender or fleeing are not acceptable results in a Milchmet Mitzvah war. If you have documented sources to the contrary I'd be interested in seeing them.

11:00 PM, July 03, 2006  
Blogger bec said...

after reading your post, i have to take back what i said on my blog (mostly out of frustration) about levelling gaza. this is an excellent post,and arresting members of the hamas government certainly adds a whole new dimension to the situation.

5:16 AM, July 04, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

MZ, check Rambam Hilchot Melachim again.

What idiocy, if you truly believe you can have victory without following the Torah, including Torah Law regarding war then you are a fool. And it pains me that nominally Frum people refuse to accept Torah law because they fear the Goyim more than they fear Hashem

5:28 AM, July 04, 2006  
Blogger Mad Zionist said...

Anonymous, why are you accusing me of idiocy, or wildly saying I'm rejecting Torah law for fear of the goyim? Have you not been seeing that my sources are from Gamara, Ramban and Rambam? I have advocated expelling the vermin by force from Israel and you think I'm afraid of the goyim and rejecting Torah?

You need help. I have no idea why you would suggest I am being soft on the moslems or cheating on God. Is it because I don't agree that full blown extermination is the Torah required path based on your obscurely sourced reasoning?

Please. I am as tough on the vermin as anybody sane can be, but to say it's either genocide or nothing at all is not rational, moral or Torah based.

6:05 AM, July 04, 2006  
Blogger westbankmama said...

saus - I said that there is someone in the IDF thinking like this, but that doesn't mean that Olmert is necessarily going according to this one person. I agree with you, he is hesitant and is not following up the way he should with more actions.

anonymous - I asked about your service in the IDF because I think this discussion is best done with a Rabbi who teaches in a Hesder yeshiva. They, after all, deal with these questions in real time, and are the experts. Although I see further on that Mad Zionist has given you some interesting things to think about!

bec - we are Jews, after all, there is no end to the different ways we can argue a subject!

mad zionist - you seem to have a good grasp of the halachot. I agree that transfer of populations would be the best idea all around - but I think it has to be voluntary on the Arabs part. Besides financial incentives, I don't see any other way of convincing them to leave. I have always felt this way, and after seeing the pain of the Gush Katif evacuees, I feel even more strongly that it is not right to force people to leave their homes. If they are terrorists, then of course the situation is different.

7:56 AM, July 04, 2006  
Blogger Mad Zionist said...

Mama, I think that voluntary transfer would be fine - if it works. If it doesn't, though, the point of a gun definitely will. Bottom line, I don't really care how we do it as long as it gets done.

The best way to accomplish the voluntary method is Benny Elon's Plan for Peace. It entails Jordan accepting the moslems from Eretz Israel and effectively becoming Palestine. The moslems in Israel would then have their Israeli citizenship revoked, be issued Jordanian citizenship in its place, and Israel makes it more worth their while with money and logistical assistance.

The question is, can such a plan be done realistically? Would the Jordanians ever accept two million unemployed moslems that have a history of brutal terroorism and violent uprisings? I doubt it.

I believe force will be the only option. It is Pikuach Nefesh to expel the moslems, so I wouldn't lose an ounce of sleep by seeing them removed. Islam itself is a terrorist organization, so every man, woman and child who follows it is a threat to Jewish life.

8:38 AM, July 04, 2006  
Blogger westbankmama said...

Madzionist - "it is Pikuach Nefesh to expell Moslems" - not so fast. This is by no means clear cut - what is and isn't Pikuach Nefesh is much more complicated - the question of how immediate is a danger to life factors in very much on when we break Shabbat and when we don't. Should we kill terrorists? Yes. Should we assume that every Moslem is a terrorist - no. "Islam itself is a terrorist organization" - also not accurate. Yes, Islam calls for domination and violence against the infidel - but there are Moslems who ignore these injunctions.

9:19 AM, July 04, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Westbankmama, the Arabs are not Ger Toshav, as such they are forbidden from living in Eretz Yisrael. The fact that they dont want to leave isnt really relevant.

9:55 AM, July 04, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Westbankmama, your argument that even though Islam calls for violence against the Infidel, but some Muslims ignore it, is positively ridiculous. So by your own admisssion Islam is evil. but maybe, some Muslims will ignore their reiligion. By your logic not all Nazis should be killed because, some of them will ignore the parts of their ideology that call for wholesale slaughter of the Jews.

MZ, I was not refering to you when I wrote of idiocy. But I want to address the isssue of acceptable outcomes in war.
Sefer haChinuch Mitzvah 528 is the Mitzvah to wipe out the Sheva Haamim. Guess what? The injunction applies even outside of Eretz Yisrael. We are required to kill their descendents even if they retreat from Eretz Yisrael. This applies for all time.

Or check out the Ritzva's perush on Makos, Daf Tes, Alma.

Ramban Sefer HaMitzvos Mitzvah number four is the Mitzvah to conquer Eretz Yisrael. Included is the Ramban's psak that we fight any nation in Eretz Yisrael AS we fight the Sheva Haamim. That means utter slaughter.

10:11 AM, July 04, 2006  
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