Monday, June 19, 2006

What Goes Around Comes Around

The Jerusalem Post has an article this morning titled "Population Swap Goes Mainstream". It refers to the idea of taking away the Israeli citizenship of Arabs living in population centers surrounded by a majority of Jewish citizens, and transfering them to the Palestinian Authority. This fits in with the idea of the separation of the populations, which promoters of the security barrier believe in. First proposed by so called "right wing fanatics" and made even more popular by Avigdor Lieberman's party, the title refers to the fact that the idea is being discussed for the first time at an academic conference.

First, I have to say that I disagree with this idea, and I think it is wrong to change someone's citizenship solely based on the demographics of where he lives. But on the other hand, I also thought that it was wrong to force someone out of his home based on the demographics, which is what happened last summer in Gush Katif.

I also think the the security barrier is wrong, and I have been vehemently opposed to it from the beginning. There really won't be a "separation" between the populations, because there are already hundreds of thousands of Arabs already living in pre-67 Israel, and I think that the very idea of separation of populations is racist and wrong. If the point is to protect Israelis from terrorists, then you have to go to where the terrorists are and capture them. Putting up a dumb wall will only slow them down, not stop them, and meanwhile you are hurting hundreds of thousands of innocent people - both Arab and Jew.

But it is interesting to see how much this racist idea of separation of populations is really catching on in Israel, and if I were a left-winger I would be in a cold sweat right now. What goes around comes around eventually. The proponents of the disengagement used numbers on a piece of paper in order to justify expelling Jews from their homes, even though they lived there legally. Now more and more people are talking about the idea of using numbers on a piece of paper in order to change citizenship. Since they are not talking about expelling Arabs, I can see how some people would see this as an acceptable thing to do. After all, you are solving that horrible demographic problem.


Blogger tafka PP said...

I just read the article. Maybe I misunderstood, but I got the impression that the conference which is allegedly bringing this taboo issue into a respected public forum isn't so much discussing "transfer" of citizens, rather discussing re-drawing boundaries to incorporate the triangle into a future Palestinian State, that sort of thing? Which is hardly new, I don't know why the article presents it that way. We all know that irrespective of our demographic "issues", there aren't many Wadi Ara residents who would choose to define themselves as Israeli over Palestinian...

(I won't get into the whole Transfer of Jews vs. Transfer of Arabs debate with you now, I'm still pretty worn out from our Supreme Court one below!)

12:56 PM, June 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Transfer is racist and wrong? What a tragedy that a Jew who claims to believe the Torah would write such nonsense. I guess when the Torah says to drive out the inhabitants of the land that is racist? The Halacha that is universally accepted among Rishonim that no Goy who is not Ger Toshav may live in Eretz Yisrael is also racist? When the Gemara in Yevamos says a Jew must save a Jew over a Goy since one Jew is worth more then all the Goyim in the world is also racist I suppose? Then I guess I am a racist since I accept all of the Torah even the parts that oppose the dominant Hellenist culture.

Batya it is time for you to follow the Torah without fear of the Goyim or what Jews who oppose the Torah say.

2:34 PM, June 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

whoops, sorry about the batya line minor typo

4:16 PM, June 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No God tells a person to hate another
reminder for those who believe in rascism.

9:07 PM, June 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I beg to differ, Sefer HaChinuch Mitzvah 528 is the Mitzah to wipe out and hate the Sheva Ha'amim.

11:16 PM, June 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Sorry, brother, but if that is the case then it is racist. I mean, sheeeeeesh. One Jew is worth more than all the gentiles in the world?

Wake up! We're 3000 years past these times, the Jews have contributed tremendously to the situation which enables us to live in peace and freedom - including the freedom from hatered.

You guys make me sad. Jewish terrorists... how can you do this to our people?

11:34 PM, June 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can do this because I follow the Torah as every Jew is required to do. And it is more important to me to follow Hashem's will rather then grovel before the Goyim in a desperate and futile attempt to get their approval.

But I guess according to you the Torah is out if date and instead we should just make up whatever we feel is right rather then follow the word of Hashem

Though the Torah is certainly not racist since anyone can become Jewish and they are as Jewish as I am.

And good luck in producing a actual act of terrorism performed by the followers of HaTzadik HaRav Meir Kahane zt'l

2:29 AM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger Batya said...

good points

6:32 AM, June 20, 2006  
Blogger westbankmama said...

tafka - I wore you out! Go eat some chocolate, woman....

kahanaloyalist - there are many halachot that we do not follow presently because our situation is different - no Sanhedrin/beis din, no Beit HaMikdash, etc. We follow what the Rabbanim tell us to - because that is what the Oral Law is for - to interpret the Written Law in contemporary times.
If you can find a broad range of Rabbonim who think that transfer is what we should do, let me know.

batya - thank you. It seems that I was mistaken for you...

9:33 AM, June 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We only follow the majority of Rabbonim when there is a Sanhedrin, and I'll tell you what, if you can find even two Rishonim who hold a non-Ger Toshav goy is allowed in Eretz Yisrael there might be something to talk about, but you wont find even that.

Besides which the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt'l, HaRav Mordechai Eliyahu shlita and HaRav Tzvi Yehuda Kook zt'l all supported expelling the Goyim.

3:12 PM, June 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

KAHANELOYALIST.. the only Torah you follow is a distorted one which owes more to Hitler's Mein Kampf than to Chazal

6:33 PM, June 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please find the source for the Lubavitcher Rebbe saying we should kick out all the goyim. I know he was against giving up any land but what is the source for the above claim please?

10:48 PM, August 07, 2007  
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